30 janvier 2003, 07h25 Icone Doom 3

.plan de Carmack

John Carmack de chez id Software, a mis à jour son .plan. Il y compare principalement le NV30 de Chez NVidia avec le R300 de chez ATI (À savoir, la Radeon 9700 Pro et la GeForce FX 5800 Ultra). Un peu comme les différents tests parus récemment sur la GeForce FX, il dit que bien qu'elle soit sensiblement plus rapide que la Radeon 9700 Pro, la 9700 Pro reste meilleur dans plusieurs cas.

Cela s'explique par des drivers qui ne sont pas encore excellents. On devrait avoir droit à de nouveaux drivers accélérant plusieurs tâches de la carte dans un futur rapproché.
par Zork 6 commentaires, dernier par
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Zork

Visiteur
(#0) 30 janvier 2003 à 07h42
Jan 29, 2003 <br />
------------ <br />
NV30 vs R300, current developments, etc <br />
<br />
At the moment, the NV30 is slightly faster on most scenes in Doom than the <br />
R300, but I can still find some scenes where the R300 pulls a little bit <br />
ahead. The issue is complicated because of the different ways the cards can <br />
choose to run the game. <br />
<br />
The R300 can run Doom in three different modes: ARB (minimum extensions, no <br />
specular highlights, no vertex programs), R200 (full featured, almost always <br />
single pass interaction rendering), ARB2 (floating point fragment shaders, <br />
minor quality improvements, always single pass). <br />
<br />
The NV30 can run DOOM in five different modes: ARB, NV10 (full featured, five <br />
rendering passes, no vertex programs), NV20 (full featured, two or three <br />
rendering passes), NV30 ( full featured, single pass), and ARB2. <br />
<br />
The R200 path has a slight speed advantage over the ARB2 path on the R300, but <br />
only by a small margin, so it defaults to using the ARB2 path for the quality <br />
improvements. The NV30 runs the ARB2 path MUCH slower than the NV30 path. <br />
Half the speed at the moment. This is unfortunate, because when you do an <br />
exact, apples-to-apples comparison using exactly the same API, the R300 looks <br />
twice as fast, but when you use the vendor-specific paths, the NV30 wins. <br />
<br />
The reason for this is that ATI does everything at high precision all the <br />
time, while Nvidia internally supports three different precisions with <br />
different performances. To make it even more complicated, the exact <br />
precision that ATI uses is in between the floating point precisions offered by <br />
Nvidia, so when Nvidia runs fragment programs, they are at a higher precision <br />
than ATI's, which is some justification for the slower speed. Nvidia assures <br />
me that there is a lot of room for improving the fragment program performance <br />
with improved driver compiler technology. <br />
<br />
The current NV30 cards do have some other disadvantages: They take up two <br />
slots, and when the cooling fan fires up they are VERY LOUD. I'm not usually <br />
one to care about fan noise, but the NV30 does annoy me. <br />
<br />
I am using an NV30 in my primary work system now, largely so I can test more <br />
of the rendering paths on one system, and because I feel Nvidia still has <br />
somewhat better driver quality (ATI continues to improve, though). For a <br />
typical consumer, I don't think the decision is at all clear cut at the <br />
moment. <br />
<br />
For developers doing forward looking work, there is a different tradeoff -- <br />
the NV30 runs fragment programs much slower, but it has a huge maximum <br />
instruction count. I have bumped into program limits on the R300 already. <br />
As always, better cards are coming soon. <br />
- <br />
Doom has dropped support for vendor-specific vertex programs <br />
(NV_vertex_program and EXT_vertex_shader), in favor of using <br />
ARB_vertex_program for all rendering paths. This has been a pleasant thing to <br />
do, and both ATI and Nvidia supported the move. The standardization process <br />
for ARB_vertex_program was pretty drawn out and arduous, but in the end, it is <br />
a just-plain-better API than either of the vendor specific ones that it <br />
replaced. I fretted for a while over whether I should leave in support for <br />
the older APIs for broader driver compatibility, but the final decision was <br />
that we are going to require a modern driver for the game to run in the <br />
advanced modes. Older drivers can still fall back to either the ARB or NV10 <br />
paths. <br />
<br />
The newly-ratified ARB_vertex_buffer_object extension will probably let me do <br />
the same thing for NV_vertex_array_range and ATI_vertex_array_object. <br />
<br />
Reasonable arguments can be made for and against the OpenGL or Direct-X style <br />
of API evolution. With vendor extensions, you get immediate access to new <br />
functionality, but then there is often a period of squabbling about exact <br />
feature support from different vendors before an industry standard settles <br />
down. With central planning, you can have "phasing problems" between <br />
hardware and software releases, and there is a real danger of bad decisions <br />
hampering the entire industry, but enforced commonality does make life easier <br />
for developers. Trying to keep boneheaded-ideas-that-will-haunt-us-for-years <br />
out of Direct-X is the primary reason I have been attending the Windows <br />
Graphics Summit for the past three years, even though I still code for OpenGL. <br />
<br />
The most significant functionality in the new crop of cards is the truly <br />
flexible fragment programming, as exposed with ARB_fragment_program. Moving <br />
from the "switches and dials" style of discrete functional graphics <br />
programming to generally flexible programming with indirection and high <br />
precision is what is going to enable the next major step in graphics engines. <br />
<br />
It is going to require fairly deep, non-backwards-compatible modifications to <br />
an engine to take real advantage of the new features, but working with <br />
ARB_fragment_program is really a lot of fun, so I have added a few little <br />
tweaks to the current codebase on the ARB2 path: <br />
<br />
High dynamic color ranges are supported internally, rather than with <br />
post-blending. This gives a few more bits of color precision in the final <br />
image, but it isn't something that you really notice. <br />
<br />
Per-pixel environment mapping, rather than per-vertex. This fixes a pet-peeve <br />
of mine, which is large panes of environment mapped glass that aren't <br />
tessellated enough, giving that awful warping-around-the-triangulation effect <br />
as you move past them. <br />
<br />
Light and view vectors normalized with math, rather than a cube map. On <br />
future hardware this will likely be a performance improvement due to the <br />
decrease in bandwidth, but current hardware has the computation and bandwidth <br />
balanced such that it is pretty much a wash. What it does (in conjunction <br />
with floating point math) give you is a perfectly smooth specular highlight, <br />
instead of the pixelish blob that we get on older generations of cards. <br />
<br />
There are some more things I am playing around with, that will probably remain <br />
in the engine as novelties, but not supported features: <br />
<br />
Per-pixel reflection vector calculations for specular, instead of an <br />
interpolated half-angle. The only remaining effect that has any visual <br />
dependency on the underlying geometry is the shape of the specular highlight. <br />
Ideally, you want the same final image for a surface regardless of if it is <br />
two giant triangles, or a mesh of 1024 triangles. This will not be true if <br />
any calculation done at a vertex involves anything other than linear math <br />
operations. The specular half-angle calculation involves normalizations, so <br />
the interpolation across triangles on a surface will be dependent on exactly <br />
where the vertexes are located. The most visible end result of this is that <br />
on large, flat, shiny surfaces where you expect a clean highlight circle <br />
moving across it, you wind up with a highlight that distorts into an L shape <br />
around the triangulation line. <br />
<br />
The extra instructions to implement this did have a noticeable performance <br />
hit, and I was a little surprised to see that the highlights not only <br />
stabilized in shape, but also sharpened up quite a bit, changing the scene <br />
more than I expected. This probably isn't a good tradeoff today for a gamer, <br />
but it is nice for any kind of high-fidelity rendering. <br />
<br />
Renormalization of surface normal map samples makes significant quality <br />
improvements in magnified textures, turning tight, blurred corners into shiny, <br />
smooth pockets, but it introduces a huge amount of aliasing on minimized <br />
textures. Blending between the cases is possible with fragment programs, but <br />
the performance overhead does start piling up, and it may require stashing <br />
some information in the normal map alpha channel that varies with mip level. <br />
Doing good filtering of a specularly lit normal map texture is a fairly <br />
interesting problem, with lots of subtle issues. <br />
<br />
Bump mapped ambient lighting will give much better looking outdoor and <br />
well-lit scenes. This only became possible with dependent texture reads, and <br />
it requires new designer and tool-chain support to implement well, so it isn't <br />
easy to test globally with the current Doom datasets, but isolated demos are <br />
promising. <br />
<br />
The future is in floating point framebuffers. One of the most noticeable <br />
thing this will get you without fundamental algorithm changes is the ability <br />
to use a correct display gamma ramp without destroying the dark color <br />
precision. Unfortunately, using a floating point framebuffer on the current <br />
generation of cards is pretty difficult, because no blending operations are <br />
supported, and the primary thing we need to do is add light contributions <br />
together in the framebuffer. The workaround is to copy the part of the <br />
framebuffer you are going to reference to a texture, and have your fragment <br />
program explicitly add that texture, instead of having the separate blend unit <br />
do it. This is intrusive enough that I probably won't hack up the current <br />
codebase, instead playing around on a forked version. <br />
<br />
Floating point framebuffers and complex fragment shaders will also allow much <br />
better volumetric effects, like volumetric illumination of fogged areas with <br />
shadows and additive/subtractive eddy currents. <br />
John Carmack
cocio_16

Visiteur
(#0) 03 février 2003 à 13h15
merci zork.je me demendait justement ce que j'était suposé en tiré.mais le problaime est que je suis nul en anglais!!!
Zork

Visiteur
(#0) 03 février 2003 à 20h21
Je l'ai lu en entier, mais je ne voulais pas m'égarer dans des détails techniques qui ne me parraissent pas évident à moi (et donc l'expliquer et le traduire en même temps, non merci). Sinon, de rien !
atowm

Visiteur
(#0) 21 février 2003 à 20h53
N'écoutez pas J-C, ildoit être payé par ATI en ce moment...<br />
En réalité je n'en sait rien mais qui sait ?
Zork

Visiteur
(#0) 22 février 2003 à 08h06
En y pensant bien, ATI est Canadien et Nvidia, Américain (USA). À mon sens, il est donc bien d'encourager ATI.
Chrom2x3000mpxR

Visiteur
(#0) 28 août 2003 à 18h10
J'avais la 9800pro et je possede maintenant la 5900 ultra 256 fusion avec des radiateur magnifique des deux cotez noir elle est enorme superbe carte pas un bug instal com du beurre la mienne tourne a 525mhz le pros et 1000 mhz la ram et n'a jamais faillit a son devoir elle est plus stable et beaucoup beaucoup + puissante qu'une radeon 9800 pro la fluidité que ma donner cette carte ma laisser sur le ....
non sen rire j'ai eu les 2 et ya pas photo meme pas en reve ce qui disent le contraire ou n'y comprennent rien ou veulent ce rassurer enfin j'ai adoré ma radeon j'ai eu la 9700pro aussi je ne suis pas un pronvidia
je suis heureux de voir que ati a detronner le monstre pendant quelque mois on n'aura que les cartes moin cher c cool il faudrait meme des autres concurents en course !!!
mais a ce jour ou j'ecris il n'y a rien qui tient la nv35 ou la 5900ultra 256 ni de pres ni de loin
peu etre tres loin lol
et qd tu met de la patate anti aliazing antisotrope et compagnie
la radeon 9800 pro ce fait literalement mettre sur place
pour ma part ds les jeux il ya des option et elle sont fait pour etre mise

ma machine
2x3000 + amd 0.13 512/128 mp
2 dd 80 stargate 15000 ultra scsi 320
4000 mo ddr ram 2700 ecc(auto correction)
fx 5900 ultra 256 fusion
AUDIGY 2 THX
VIVE LES BI-PROCESSEUR
2 CERVEAUX VALENT MIEU 1
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